28 Mar 2010
The Electric Bike Debate
Both Mickael Colville-Andersen and David Hembrow are great guys. Both are doing so much to promote utility cycling.
David takes the trouble to give me frequent good advice, especially about infrastructure which for him, is key. Safety is under the wheels, certainly not on the head as they wish us to believe here.
Mikael has run some of my bike movies on his blog, Copenhagenize.com. which has much increased their reach and impact.
He’s also supported our campaign to promote sit-up bikes in Australia (see March 18th on his bog)
But when it come to Electric bikes, sadly, we part company, they and I. Mikael regards them as lazy bikes, and David insists they are strictly for the old and/or infirm
I think that’s not true and that both go against their own thinking when they say so.
Mikael is both funny and apt when he compares a bike to a vacuum cleaner. His points is that we should not over romanticize or fetish-ize the bike.
It’s just a tool like a vacuum cleaner, and about equally sexy most of the time .
By that argument if the E bike is useful, then it’s an extension of the tool that’ll be right for some circumstances, and we shouldn’t get too worked up about it and call it names like, lazy bike
Just like some vacuums cleaners roll along, beating the hell out of carpet, and others merely suck, bikes work differently too.
David points out that people ride, and will ride more, when it’s fun, that being safe is a big part of the fun, and that being safe is in turn, a matter of separated bike paths. All perfectly sensible.
Now, if I say that steep hills and carrying loads on a bike, are not necessarily fun, depending on your fitness level, the heat of day, etc. and that I need help, I shouldn’t be made to feel like a wuss.
Hills and loads do come into the fun equation hard and fast! .
Every one of our of journeys involves quite complex option and enjoyment assessment, especially in countries where to use a bike is exceptional, and bike-ways a sparse or non existent.
Now, unless one does a Rip Van Winkle, going to sleep with the alarm clock set to wake you in 30 years time when the bike ways have all been built, unless that, you have to make do with what you’ve got, all the while kicking and screaming for separated paths.
For example, take my trip to the shops this morning , I’m just back. I’ts 11.5 kms. round trip. I went on the bike, my saddle bags ready play their role. No bike ways at all.
Here’s my bulging saddle bags on the moment of arriving back.
Here’s what they contained, arranged as nicely as I can. The weight of my load, 25 kilos.
Here too is the log slow incline on Hillside road up to the house. This, I just climbed on the last leg of the homeward journey. It goes up for 1.6 kms. The gradient is not so steep, but many people on bikes do walk up it, lazy sods.
I think you wouldn’t be at all surprised, given that hill, the overall distance and expected load , when i say that I wouldn’t have dreamt of going by bike if I didn’t have my small electrical assist, my tiny 200 watt motor.
it would not have been the slightest bit fun. Yet, with that small amount of help, it was indeed fun.
So that is why, anticipating that fun, especially the marvelous free wheeling down that same hill, the wind in my hair, on the outward journey, that I took my E bike and not the car, sitting night next to it on the drive.
I saw only one other bike during the 45 min. trip there and back, and yet I bet every driver I passed has a bike tucked away in the garage. We do buy more cars than bikes, you know. (but the wrong sort)
Yet it occurred to none of those drivers, on their various journeys, to think the bike might be practical and fun.
Now that could be, not only because they are indeed car addicted, car coddled in terms of gas prices, taxes, etc. but because the hills around here make utility cycling no fun
So, I would like David to see that the TOBs, (my short hand for trips on bikes) would/could go way up if there was not this constant preaching against the E bike as the lazy bike, the illegitimate bike, the cheating bike.,
As David love to pint out, people don’t ride bike in Holland for hair shirt reasons, the are not pedal power missionaries. They are just getting around in the most practical and pleasant way possible.
Well what if, in a much more vast range of circumstances than my colleagues will admit, the E bike is practical and pleasant? What then?
Would you rather have people in cars, for that’s where they are, on or such bikes?
I forgot to mention, that the E bike in Australia is mired in a regulative mess. For years now, state bodies like the RTA in NSW have been trying raise the legal motor size to 250 watts which would bring us in line with Europe and Japan
This would mean that we could could import great bikes like the Gazelle Innergy from Holland, presently illegal with its 250 watt motor.
That’s good. One just wishes the Fed Govt would show some leadership and hurry this along. It’s they now who are the stumbling block.
But wise as this change is, it is quite foolish to align our E bikes with the European rule that all E bikes have to be Pedelcs. This means that the motor will only come on when you pedal.
You have the choice of no motor at all, or varying degrees of automatic assistance, depending on the sophistication and price of the bike
Why is Pedelec a problem when its clearly designed to stop people treating the E bike as a low powered motor bike, i.e. one on which you can just sit and twist, not pedal at all.
Surely that’s good? you say. Well no, it’s not at all . Firstly the problem is a furphy. Even at 250 watts, the power is so low that anyone who wants to hoon around, will go for something more powerful, a motor scooter or motorbike.
Secondly, the motors all cut out at around 25 kph, way slower than you can do on an ordinary bike, and so there is no chance of a throttle turning these bikes into speed machines.
My bike has both Pedelec and a throttle which is ideal
There is some sort of moralizing behind this move. It’s like you had a limiter on your car, dictating on how you drove it for safety or ecological reasons. Which motorists would accept that their car dd not perform freely, that they were not making all decisions?
Why does it matter? With the throttle, you can use as little power as you like, use the battery as sparingly as you like, without th machine deciding for you .
For example in a head wind, I use my throttle to deliver just a touch of power, and thus conserve my battery charge.
Srcondly, at traffic lights, it so convenient to have power to get away fast and not be in the way of cars starting up behind you.
This, you can do with the throttle of course, but not with the pwdelec because you have to be in motion, pedaling, for it to kick in on most models.
Some bikes will have some sort of quick start override. But why all the complication, having more things to break down, when the solution it so simple and time tested?
Australia should have the guts to break ranks with Europe on this.
if they don’t, and Pedelec becomes the rule, people will find ways to modify their bikes to the throttle option, so infuriated will they be with Pedelec alone.
E bikes are going to be very big. Let’s get it right this time since we’ve waited so long for change anyway !
I agree whole-heartedly Mike!
I’m 36 and very fit and I ride an pedelec (e-bike) – an electric assist bicycle; it only ‘assists’, as does yours, when you want it to. My flavour is the dutch Gazelle.
I love it. I love riding it so much that no hill has bothered me here in Brisbane, nor has any hot, humid summer day, nor has any load I’ve carried (heavy groceries, etc). I have barely driven my car in the past two months and I have a lot of fun riding my pedelec bicycle. If I don’t need the assistance then I just turn it off and ride it normally and can get a good workout if I really want to. I will probably use the assist less in the cooler months of July & August, if at all.
I really would love it if David or Mikael would come to Queensland in the summer and ride around with me for a few hours during the day without an e-bike!
Paul Martin
Brisbane, Australia
Paul Martin
March 28th, 2010 at 9:18 pmpermalink
MIke, who’s preaching ? Out of well over 300 blog posts, I’ve only ever made one about electric bikes, and this merely pointed out the demographics of the buyers as reported by a Dutch trade magazine. On the other hand, you have eight stories tagged as such out of 27 posts in total.
In personal email you have many times asked me questions about electric bikes and I’ve replied to you. If you don’t want my opinion, don’t keep asking for it.
You’ve also somewhat simplified my opinions in your post.
I also have a more technical argument against electric bikes which you’ve not included here. Rechargeable batteries of all types have quite short life-spans. Lithium batteries likewise, which is why there is such a market in replacement ipod batteries. The battery defines a short life-span for electric bikes. While it is usual for a non electric bike to last twenty years, you’d be lucky to get five years from an electric bike before being required to replace the battery, the controller or the motor. These are all expensive parts, and finding anything compatible after a bike has gone out of production will be difficult. If it’s available at all, are you going to want to spend a large proportion of the value of your second hand bike on a component which fails early ? No-one is going to want to ride a heavy electric bike without the motor, so they become land-fill rather quicker than a normal bike does. Electric assist bikes are short life span bikes.
An 11 km round trip is really nothing special. I’ve pointed out to you before that there are children here who ride three and even four times that distance every day merely to get to school and back.
And Paul, believe me that I’ve seen hills too. A few years back, to celebrate my 40th, I rode an average of about 140 km a day, 1700 km in total, carrying a tent, food etc. on a bike without an electric motor. It’s just as well I didn’t try it on a bike with a motor, as it simply wouldn’t have had the range, nor would it have been so fast. Many of the gradients went on longer than 1.6 km, and 1:5 hills were not that uncommon.
The simply fact is that for a fit person wanting to ride either far or fast, an electric bike will hinder more than it helps.
That you like riding your electric bike is up to you. I hope you enjoy it. Really. But why the defensive attitude ? There is no reason for you to advertise the concept so hard – there are enough manufacturers already doing that. Also, please refrain from mis-representing me in your blog posts. What point are you trying to make ?
David Hembrow
March 28th, 2010 at 11:31 pmpermalink
@David
I didn’t mean to offend you with my comment about the hills, as I have no doubt you’re fitter than me. I’m sorry about that.
It was a comment directed at Mikael as he gave e-bikes a serve the other day and I included your name, perhaps inappropriately, in the sentence as Mike referenced you. I should have reasearched the source of your ‘opinion’ before commenting.
My enjoyment of my pedelec bike comes from the fact that there really is no way to cycle as a means of transport here in summer if you want to look (and smell) vaguely respectable at the end. Sweating is dependant on body temperature, not fitness, and is particulary useless when the relative humidity is high. Here in summer it can be awfully high for days on end. That, combined with temperatures in the high 30s (C) and being at 27S lattitude makes cycling when the sun is in the sky very unpleasant.
In the ‘winter’ months (I use that term loosely) when the temperature drops to the low 20s, I don’t think I will need the assist at all, prefering the cycling to warm me.
Regards,
Paul Martin
Paul Martin
March 29th, 2010 at 12:05 ampermalink
Electric-assist (or “Pedelec”) isn’t as necessary as you may think. Within a couple of months of regularly riding around the place you will find that your fitness has improved and the electric motor and battery is a dead-weight.
On that note. I do think that we need to revise our laws on electric-assist bicycles. Raising the power limit to 250 Watts in line with Japanese and European standards would open up the marketplace to a number of quality bicycle options. However, I firmly believe that it should be a requirement that electric motors cut out at 30kph, and should only be able to operate in “assist” mode (i.e. if the pedals are not turning, the motor is not on) This is to prevent people from treating pedelecs as low-powered unregistered motorcycles.
Taking it back to basics with cycling. I think that you will get a lot more people onto bicycles if they are offered bicycles which are low-maintenance, easy-to-use and proper bicycle facilities – sensibly wide bicycle lanes, separated bicycle paths – in other words an environment where people will feel safe on their bicycles.
Martin Hartley
March 29th, 2010 at 3:32 ampermalink
I love electric bikes, Being a chronic asthmatic all my life, I never had the pleasure of enjoying a nice long ride, With the fear that at anytime an attack may occur, 5 km from anyplace where you can really rest, or miss assessing a large hill and running out of breath. The joys of bike riding could easily have become an ambulance ride to the hospital. But after getting my hands on an electric bike, that all has changed, I know that if I feel that shortness of breath, I have that assistance to get back home comfortably. Just that little bit of help make all the difference. Yes for the healthy ones of you out there you might laugh at these bikes, but for the rest of us, it has opened a new way for us,
Oh and just a note, I would believe that the benefits to the environment from riding a electric bike would outweigh the cost of producing, charging and disposing of a battery pack every 2 years (or so), if you ride instead of use that car in the driveway.
Thanks Tony
Tony
March 29th, 2010 at 4:07 ampermalink
E-bikes have a very bright future in hilly and hot countries like Australia. Sure they may have a bigger environmental foot print than a ‘normal’ bicycle but compared to a car it is a fantastic and smart alternative.
We import Gazelle Innergy electric bikes into Australia and when I deal with customers who tell me they now hardly use the car and use their electric bike instead it makes me feel great! Without the the use of a electric bicycle these new cyclists would hardly cycle otherwise. And one extra cyclist on the road makes cyclists more visible and helps push the cycling agenda with our governments and councils.
Electric bicycles won’t be for every one but they will play an important part in getting more people on bikes and that is all that matters.
Cheers,
Paul van Bellen
Paul
March 29th, 2010 at 4:50 ampermalink
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Introduction to Bicycle Tire
March 29th, 2010 at 5:22 ampermalink
25 kilos?! – leave the table behind next time!!!
i’m with david and mikael on this one – plus how could e-bikes use separate cycleways? – shouldn’t there be some sort of maximum speed limit on them?
Sue Abbott
March 29th, 2010 at 6:09 ampermalink
@Sue Abbott – laws on electric bikes limit their powered use to 15mph (at least in the UK). Depending on how hard and where you cycle, I’d say that’s slightly above the average of a “trad” cyclist.
Not sure how many cyclists want to take 25kg of picnic up a hill; sure an electric bike will come in handy there — but I think the mainsteam use will be for commuters. Who wants to turn up to work in a sweaty suit?
Ed Fry
March 29th, 2010 at 9:35 ampermalink
David, sorry if I sounded defensive, and it was bit unfair to drag you into the debater since, as you say, you’ve hardly posted on it.
But your opinions are or course very vivid in my mind in our personal correspondence, none of which I’d reproduce without permission of course. Your points about battery life and recycling are well taken. But on weight you are not so right, I think.
With the battery off my E bike, the weight difference is so small , that is of no account.So, I easily turn my bike back into a regular sit up if and when the battery packs up or I become so fit that I no longer need it. On one bike my preferred one , I can remove all traces of past electric deviance by replacing the front wheel.
We must not add to this weight obsession which comes from the carbon fibre people. I’ll post an an intriguing story from SF sent to me by Paul Martin. It reports on the blog of a US keen cyclist who rides something very light around SF, and who was amused at always seeing a lady on a pink sit-up, around that hilly town.
She was being a bit of a show off, he thought, cycling around with bulging panniers. He assumed they were stuffed with newspaper and so too, the laden basket in front, all part of her image.
Then, one day he stopped her and was gob smacked to discover that the panniers were full of pink bricks. Her bike weighed 86 Lbs. Weird, I know. But the writer concludes with the personal revelation, that we must no obsess about weight.
Where your feelings about E bikes make little sense to me, David, is on the fun question. They are fun! We could set up a challenge here in Australia , a closed off street market would do, offering rides on one of my E bikes. I would put a thousand dollars on virtually every test rider saying, “This is so much fun. I didn’t know a bike could be such fun.” I’ve done a smaall version if this the test, I do know the result..
Now, would this for you be illegitimate fun, somehow dirty bike fun? What if that tiny motor gets people onto bikes, as so many attest it does, when this topic comes up? What if it makes for a huge jump in the number of times one uses a bike instead of the car, as in my case? Would you rather me/ they be in cars?
Again, apolgies for blindsiding you with this. I do value you opinions, as you know. I’ve just seen the full Beauty and the Bike, by the way. I purchased it.
Mike Rubbo
March 29th, 2010 at 11:34 ampermalink
Mike, I think you got the cars vs bikes ownership around the wrong way. There are more bikes than cars in Australia, and there are more bikes than cars getting bought in Australia, but there are more cars being driven than bikes being ridden in Australia.
I don’t think Mikael gets e-bikes at all with his ass-pusher comments. I wanted to write a post myself about his unhelpful attitude, but didn’t get around to it. So thanks Mike, you’ve saved me from that.
I’m neither old or infirm and I love my e-bike. It has its limitations. 50km is the battery range. Once the battery goes the ride is sluggish. I still get punctures. The batteries are way too expensive, and they’re not standardised in shape, or electrical specs (so swap schemes would be able towork), and the recycling infrastructure isn’t around yet (but probably will be, especially if the price of lithium is so high like it is.) If batteries were cheaper I’d buy myself a spare and increase my range. 50km is the same range on my e-bike and my standard bike for me. One takes me under 2 hours, the other over 3.
@Sue, I’m sure you don’t want me going fast so I’ll more likely to be required to wear a helmet, but my 250W situp e-bike goes slower than a normal cyclist on a road bike. I’m of the opinion that there shouldn’t be a max speed on any bike, electric or not, but it should be limited by the power rating of the motor, and I’d put the limit at 500W and still be a legal bicycle sharing bike infrastructure with everyone else. The pedals aren’t decorative on an e-bike after all.
And I’m of the opinion that 2-stroke petrol engines should never be legal on a bike. The noise and fumes just piss with the tranquility of a pleasant ride on a bike track.
@David “The simply fact is that for a fit person wanting to ride either far or fast, an electric bike will hinder more than it helps.” – I don’t agree. There are swings and roundabouts, but I rider faster and usually further on my electric bike than I do on my normal bike. Ok I’m not the world’s fittest man, perhaps. My e-bike is more fun, and I feel safer on it (like having that little bit of acceleration away from traffic lights, so I get out in front and become more visible).
The #1 priority is infrastructure to get more people riding, and the more people riding the more demand for infrastructure. But also if electric bikes mean more people ride, then it means more demand, and more infrastructure. If it gets people out of cars, and if it gets people off trams and trains and buses (and also out of cars and onto trams and trains and buses, with part of their journeys on bike), then we get more infrastructure and better cities. There might even be a tipping point in each city where the multitudes forget their cars and take their bikes.
@Paul in Brisbane. Some of those hills in Brissie are killers. I wish I had an e-bike when I lived there, but what about those magpies? I had blood drawn 4 times in two weeks in August 1997. Equipping your bike helmet with magpie detection and tasers might be the way to go. See Sue there is a use for a bicycle helmet after all.
Matty T
March 29th, 2010 at 11:36 ampermalink
Well after reading situp-cycle and seeing the videos on commuting I’ve decided to give it a go. I used to ride a lot when I was a kid but like everyone (in Australia at least) when the car comes the bike is forgotten. Being knocked down by a car on my last ride sealed the fate of riding for me until now.
Anyway, I’m in Brisbane, and the 12 K between my work and I there are at least two “killer hills”. Now I’ve lived and worked in the same areas for 13 years and I’ve never done bike commuting. However electric bikes have encouraged me to try.
A friend bought one 18 months ago and loves it. He gets to work not too sweaty and saves time over his bus commute. On the way home he rides all the way for exercise. Most importantly, he’s actually doing it.
So, I’m going to give it a big go. I bought a normal bike and am fitting a kit to it so if in a while I decide I don’t like it or want it anymore it’s ebay for the electric kit. Maybe someone else will use it to get a start in commuting too.
Steve
March 29th, 2010 at 2:25 pmpermalink
A few notes on the e-bike characteristics as compared to those of an electric car such as the Nissan Leaf.
e-bike:
Battery capacity: ~400Wh
Power output: 250W
Cost: ~$US3,000
Max range: ~50km
Max speed: ~25-30km/h
e-car:
Battery capacity: ~24,000Wh
Power output: ~80,000W
Cost: ~$US40,000
Max range: ~160km
Max speed: ~140km/h
The e-bike is fundamentally a bicycle while the Nissan Leaf and its ilk are fundamentally cars, with all the environmental/social downsides, with the single exception of tailpipe emissions. The power output and battery capacity is most telling…
@Matty T:
“I’m of the opinion that there shouldn’t be a max speed on any bike, electric or not, but it should be limited by the power rating of the motor, and I’d put the limit at 500W and still be a legal bicycle sharing bike infrastructure with everyone else”
A 500W motor on a bicycle with no speed cut off would be a recipe for disaster. On such a bicycle, a reasonably fit rider could expect to get around 700-800W down, easily pushing there speed above 50km/h. You can check this using an online cycle speed calculator: http://www.noping.net/english/
A speed limit is much more practical as it is the lower speeds of bicycles that make them inherently safer. Go much above 30km/h and you’re starting to get into motorcycle territory without the protective gear and licensing requirements. IMHO, the EU has it right by setting the maximum speed at 25km/h, which means an e-bike will give little or no speed advantage on level ground for a reasonably fit person. E-bikes shouldn’t be allowed to get ahead of the traditional variety.
Tali
March 29th, 2010 at 2:29 pmpermalink
I used to get offended when people were convinced I rode and electric bike. Carrying around 2 children on a bike is not a normal thing to do in the UK and most people can’t imagine that they could propel themselves up a hill, let alone with 2 additional passengers. Now my kids are getting heavier, I can see that it’s not such a stupid idea. Electric assist for carrying heavy loads seems to make sense, especially when it is to replace a journey that would be otherwise done by car.
After test riding a cargobike with electric assist last week, the main impression I took away with me was not only was it great fun, but also how it could improve the safety of cyclists pulling out of junctions. Currently trying to find a gap in the traffic that is safe enough to pull out into is often impossible, especially the slow acceleration when carrying passengers. The bike I tested had a throttle and meant you could use it to pull out safely without cars bearing down on top of you immediately. I am glad that this option is legal in the UK as it makes perfect sense in this situation.
I think it is much easier to be dismissive of e-bikes when you are used to a cycling culture. When the masses already cycle then it is of course a niche or minority option. However, in the UK, USA and Australia etc cycling rates are so low and cycling is so dominated by recreational cycling that most people cannot imagine themselves cycling at all. The lack of proper infrastructure is a major problem and whilst cycling numbers are so low is unlikely to ever become taken seriously. Electric bikes offer the potential at least to convince a few more people out of their cars. Too many people are so unfit, too scared, have too far to commute, to consider cycling, anything which unlocks the door to a new world is a good thing.
I think to term electric bikes as lazy bikes is to miss the point, a car is the lazy option! To many fit and healthy people they enable cycling to become more than a short distance ride to work or the shops and allow a level of freedom to do journeys hitherto unimagined. To people with health problems they also offer opportunities that were previously denied. We shouldn’t be calling them derogatory terms such as lazy bikes but embracing the fact that they make cycling more inclusive. Cycling for all is what we should be aiming for.
Sheffield Cycle Chic
March 29th, 2010 at 2:42 pmpermalink
@Tali,
I go 34km/hr maximum on the flat, pedalling as fast as I can with my 250W motor on full. That is not that fast.
I go 26km/hr up a relatively steep hill I’d walk my other bike up.
Coming down the same hill I can go over 60km/hr.
Riding an e-bike at 40km/hr isn’t that scary. Road bikes with a decent rider go over 40 regularly. In the Tour de France don’t the winning riders average like 54 km/hr over the whole Tour?
To have a speed cutoff, you need to be measuring your speed, which means compulsory bike computers. Since mine fell off and I lost it I can’t really see the point in getting another one.
500W doesn’t seem too high to me. I think my 250W is underpowered. If there is to be a prescriptive limit it should pretty much make anything permissable, except when it gets into the realms of the ridiculous. Like a 3hp motor for instance.
California has a 1000W limit. Australia’s 200W is too pissy. Europe’s you’ve got to be pedalling for assistance is too limiting.
Where I ride it is rare I see another bike, and it is rare to see a pedestrian, and when I do I slow down. Limiting me to 25km/hr or something slow when I am out on the open road, or on an empty cycle path, would be bad public policy. I wanna go fast and I don’t want a petrol engine.
Matt
March 29th, 2010 at 3:24 pmpermalink
@Martin Hartley “However, I firmly believe that it should be a requirement that electric motors cut out at 30kph, and should only be able to operate in “assist” mode (i.e. if the pedals are not turning, the motor is not on) This is to prevent people from treating pedelecs as low-powered unregistered motorcycles.”
I disagree with everything in that. I don’t believe in a cutoff speed. My Wisper has the green button where it can cutoff at a certain speed, and where it doesn’t. It is legal to press the button in NZ, but not in some countries. I only use the cutoff if I want to preserve power over a long ride.
What’s actually is wrong with someone using a pedelec as a low-powered unregistered motorcycle? It isn’t a motorcycle. It is a bicycle. Who gives a damn if they pedal or not? What makes you better than them? They’re on a bike. They’re not on a motorcycle, or in a car. Maybe they can’t pedal, or maybe they’ve just pedalled 60 kilometres and they’re having a rest. Maybe they don’t want to be sweaty when they get there. (And you’ll find with pedals on an e-bike, most people still pedal anyway)
They’re on a bike. They’re having fun. The wind is in their hair. There exhaust and noise in nil. (or if there are emissions at the power station then it is at the power station, and not in the city where everyone lives and breathes, and can be mitigated in one place not thousands)
Stop being snobs about it. Electric bikes are great.
Matt
March 29th, 2010 at 3:34 pmpermalink
just as a ‘tinnie’ will never be a single-skull, to me an ‘e-bike’ will never be a bicycle
Sue Abbott
March 29th, 2010 at 6:45 pmpermalink
Exactly my thoughts Sheffield cycle chic, and elaborated with the sort of telling personal experience which counts for so much. Thanks for writing.
Mike Rubbo
March 30th, 2010 at 1:19 ampermalink
Yes, i don’t mind setting the speed limit at 25. i ride fast than that sometimes but the motor is not helping, which is fine with me. . What I don’ t like is that Australia, copying the Eu plans to take way the throttle which for me is a safety feature. What do you think about that, Matty. I gather from Sheffield cycle chic,that throttles are legal in the UK.
Mike Rubbo
March 30th, 2010 at 1:23 ampermalink
There is. Mine cuts out at 25 kph. As for weight it’s mostly a furphy. the bike you ride wpuld be considered seriously heavy by the average carbonista, and yet you know it’s not .
Also see the story further up i reported to David about the lady in SF who rides a pink bike, regular, no motor with her saddle bags full of pink bricks. I’m not sure what she’s proving, but the guy who reported all this story, came to the conclusion he’d been too obsessed by weight.
Mike Rubbo
March 30th, 2010 at 1:36 ampermalink
But then to the average Aussie rider, one of the lycra set, you giant Suede is not real bike either. Sit0ups are sooo…. so wrong for Aust. , as the vice pres. of Bike NSW told the SMH the other day.
Mike Rubbo
March 30th, 2010 at 1:38 ampermalink
@Mike I like my throttle. I stand up on my pedals sometimes and using the throttle I get to do a bit of birdwatching. If I’m just gliding past the birds without pedalling they generally don’t fly away. I got to within 3 feet of a falcon on a fencepost without him taking off, and even a kingfisher was unfrightened of me on Saturday.
Making the throttle illegal, because some lycra snob (or some cycle-chic snob) thinks its cheating, would be a great shame.
I pedal 90% of the time on my e-bike. But it is pretty nice to have a rest and still keep moving.
So repeating what I’ve said before – get someone on a bike, let them have any near-quiet electric motor they want, or none, as they themselves see fit. Don’t make silly laws removing the throttle and require them to pedal 100% of the time if they don’t want to. Don’t set some arbitrary maximum speed. Don’t tell they can’t ride on bikeways (like in Boulder, Colorado). Let them have as much fun as they want. Let them start young, or come to it as oldies, and anything in between. Then let them have as much safe infrastructure as they need in towns and in the country. Repeat for 100s of millions of someones and the world is a better place.
@Sue, you should test ride a pedal-electric. You might enjoy it.
The EU rules are too restrictive. You may all have seen that video on Copenhagenize with the MEPs in the green jackets. That’s what underpowered e-bikes do. They make you look silly. As I wrote in this blog post at http://wellingtoncycleways.wordpress.com/2010/03/26/another-wellingtonian-gets-an-electric-bike/ the guy at Standards NZ who was asked to look at power assisted bike standards tried one out, fell in love with it, and just rode his e-bike from Wellington to Auckland. His bike goes 40km/hr. I bet he doesn’t recommend the whimpy EU rules for NZ.
Matty T
March 30th, 2010 at 2:41 ampermalink
As far as I understand it the UK rules on electric bikes are that they must cut out at 15mph and that throttles are legal. This is slightly different to the EU rules (how we’ve got that opt out I don’t know), but from a safety point of view when transporting heavy loads the additional acceleration the throttle allows makes a lot of sense. As for the speed cut off – 15mph uphill is a lot faster than I can manage under my own steam! And downhill, I don’t have a speedo, so I can only guess that I freewheel at around 20mph as I seem to be able to keep up with cars!
Sheffield Cycle Chic
March 30th, 2010 at 7:28 ampermalink
My thoughts on:
Speed Limit for Assistance
I can see the logic from a pure physics perspective: wind resistance increases exponentially with speed and for a bicycle this starts to become significant above 12km/h (there is a reason why the average Copenhagener cycles at 15km/h!).
<a href="http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/withouthotair/cA/page_259.shtml" Without Hot Air
The laws of diminishing returns come into play above this. Proportionally more energy is required to increase the speed by a given amount so it is really a waste of electricity (and muscle power, unless you’re training) to be going above these speeds.
A speed of 25km/h is a good compromise.
Motor Limit
As with speed, the larger the motor the faster the rate at which energy is consumed, therefore for the same range you’ll need more batteries. 250W is reasonable and it takes the edge off hills, no doubt, but I think 1000W is excessive. 500W may be perfect but some study needs to be done. Australia’s current 200W limit is too low.
A chap cycled past me the other day with an illegal 1000W motor on his bicycle (worn rim brake pads, worn tyres, etc) and he accelerated up-hill to over 60km/h in a few seconds. I don’t want this sort of behaviour (if legal) to kill the idea of e-bikes before they take off.
However, with a speed limit on assistance the motor size becomes less of an issue and bigger limits may be allowed.
Throttles
I can understand how it would be of use however I can see how it could get people into trouble. Linking motor output to pedalling is intuitive. When you pedal on a bicycle, power goes to the wheels. When you stop, it stops.
Perhaps a throttle should be allowed but the default assistance uses a torque sensor and requires pedalling with a throttle override at times when required?
Any thoughts?
Regards,
Paul Martin
Brisbane
Dr Paul Martin
March 30th, 2010 at 2:01 pmpermalink
@Mat:
I like e-bikes. And I agree that 200W power limit is too low. And maybe a 32km/h limit, in line with some of the US standards would fit the Australian road system better.
However, we know that limits must be placed on one or a combination of the power, maximum assisted speed or weight of e-bikes if manufacturers aren’t going to stick pedals on e-motorbikes and sell them as e-bikes. I think limiting maximum assisted speed makes the most sense because it is the most directly safety related of the three limits. Crashing a 500W+ e-bike into a solid object at 50km/h+ is going to hurt more than doing the same thing a 25-30km/h. Sure, racing cyclists can exceed 50km/h, but they’re a tiny minority, athletes, and almost by definition, they get a lot of bike handling practice and tend to avoid the busy areas.
Arguing that you are responsible and can handle a 500W-1000W e-bike is a bit like the motor enthusiast who argues that they are responsible and therefore the government has no business telling them they can’t buy a street legal car with a top speed of 250km/h. The truth is that humans tend to abuse motor power. Legalise e-bikes with power output above 250W and no speed limiter and eventually some ideot who lost his car licence for speeding will hit a pedestrian travelling at 50km/h+ and e-bikes will become public enemy number 1.
Limit e-bike speed, and you can build all the practical hill climbing cargo bikes you want, and they can have power assist upto speeds that match there status as vehicles that require no licence or registration.
And all the e-bikes require fairly sophisticated control systems, so I don’t the the “no to mandatory cycle computers” argument holds up.
Tali
March 30th, 2010 at 3:20 pmpermalink
I like Tali’s 32 km/hr limit better than Paul’s 25km/hr.
I’d put it at 40 km/hr, if we had to have a speed limit on assistance, but I still think that would be too restrictive under some circumstances and would be limiting some safe and legitimate uses.
Maybe it’s better to have speed limits posted on the cyclepaths, and not put limits on the bikes. After all this is how highways work.
So if someone wants to limit us to 200W and 25 km/hr we should insist that cars have to be limited to 10Hp and 50 km/hr.
Matt
March 30th, 2010 at 4:00 pmpermalink
I’ve been reading all you messages, and for me ebikes makes people happy and this is the most important
http://vimeo.com/10421449
Electric hugs,
Guim
Guim
March 31st, 2010 at 6:35 ampermalink
I LIKE the “natural” bicycle, the electric its good for old people or people with problems , sorry for my english
regards from argentina
GANESHA
March 31st, 2010 at 4:21 pmpermalink
Slightly off topic but this is a new concept for an electric “city” bike (whatever that is). It’s throttle-less:
http://bicycledesign.net/2010/04/city-cycle-concept-bike/
Edward
April 1st, 2010 at 3:21 pmpermalink
Quick note,
Yes, there where more new bikes sold to new cars
But we all know that they are not going to be the primarily transport for all the buyers. Where the motor vehicles probably will.
In 2009,
937,328 new motor vehicles
1,154,077 Bicycles
it is estimated that used vehicles can be up to 6 times that
But a better sign is the registration information.
This says that there are 15,674,436 registered vehicles inc. motor cycles in Australia.
Australia’s current population 22,294,050, When you remove people under 16 and people over 65, that leaves you with about 16,631,361.
Where getting close to 1 vehicle for every person who drives.
Food for thought.
Tony
April 2nd, 2010 at 6:29 pmpermalink
PS Of cause people over 65 still drive, but as 12.6% of population is over 65, its a large section, and a proportion of them drive significantly less, So people please please don’t get upset about it.
Tony
April 2nd, 2010 at 6:50 pmpermalink
Hi everyone,
on the bringing laws in line with Europe debate – 250W is still very low and would not change much in the way of ebike availability here. “Pedal Assist” is Eurotrash in the bureaucratic sense. It does not enhance safety, it reduces reliability and if you need to walk your ebike up a steep hill or driveway you have to push its weight up instead of it ‘walking itself’ up. Let’s only take the good aspects of the legislation please!
About the ‘laziness’ debate I side with the ebikes. Someone using an ebike every day is more environmentally friendly and healthier than someone using a push bike every couple of weeks. That comparison is realistic in Australia where hardly anyone rides a bicycle. Maybe it’s just the Australians who are lazy but an e-bike that needs a 3kg, AUD300 battery replaced every 25,000km hardly rates amongst today’s environmental woes.
Maurice
Maurice
April 13th, 2010 at 7:55 pmpermalink
For some people getting work on time and cutting through traffic without getting all sweaty is a god send for commuters, so in no way do I think it’s a lazy persons bike.
Joe @ electric bikes
April 22nd, 2010 at 7:34 pmpermalink
While the authoratitive boffins are at it, maybe they should consider those lycra brigade “natural” “sporty” riders who blast along at +40kph on dual use paths – yet detest e-bikes & want to keep them limited to 25kph & 200W – should be limited by new laws to limit them to the same 25kph top speed.
That way, there would be less serious injuries than now, when they are all crashing into each other and pedestrians at +40kph?
Also, there would be no faux-favouritism shown to one side or the other.
Until then, I will continue riding and thoroughly enjoying my legally stamped, WOT controlled, teensy-weens,y 36V 200W Bafang front hub MTB add-on kit at 30-35kph on VIC country back roads. I promise to keep smiling as I pedal-cruise into headwinds & uphill past the many “regular” or “normal” road cyclists on same roads.
60 Year Old Fart
aussiejeff
April 28th, 2010 at 5:34 pmpermalink
[...] in the US, we must really like our bikes, right? But, has it become a fetish with us? Is this fair comment by founder of Copehagenize.com that while the Danish see their bicycles as an everyday tool, like their vacuum cleaner, we are [...]
Are we over-thinking it with our bicycles?
May 9th, 2010 at 12:49 pmpermalink
BIKERS SOLAR:
http://www.solarbi-kers.com
eco-box
May 30th, 2010 at 7:50 ampermalink
And what about those of us who ride (or plan to ride) recumbents and velomobiles? Over 60kph on the flat, unassisted, is normal two-hour-ride territory (and quite safe in a velo), which is what you need if you’re commuting long distance, touring, or the like. Are we to be limited in the use of electric assist for hill-climbing only?
25 kph is a speed limit for kids bikes and Sunday riders (I would support it for under-16s, but no more than that) – a lycra-gang style UCI bike is most certainly NOT a good model for what a practical human-powered vehicle can do on legs alone (much less a sit-up-bike). If you must throw speed limits around in conversation as if they were reasonable, please make sure it’s restricted to vehicles for which they are, in fact, remotely reasonable.
The proposed law lumps sit-ups and velos in the same category, which is much like saying that skateboards and shopping trolleys should face the same restrictions in shopping centres because they each have four wheels.
Overall, a 25kph speed limit does nothing for electric bikes except to make them LESS useful and practical than their unpowered cousins.
velo-guy
June 30th, 2010 at 3:07 ampermalink